LISTEN — Class Disrupted Podcast Episode 3: Why Can’t Sal Khan Just Teach Everyone?
Class Disrupted is a weekly podcast focused on education, featuring discussions between author Michael Horn, Summit Public Schools’ Diane Tavenner, and various members of school communities. Together, they explore the challenges posed by the pandemic to the education system and discuss potential paths forward. You can find all episodes on our Class Disrupted page or by subscribing to Apple Podcasts, Google Play, or Stitcher (with new episodes released every Tuesday).
As we approach summer, parents around the world are contemplating whether schools will reopen next year and what that might look like. The truth is, there is much uncertainty. However, amidst the fear, there is also significant opportunity.
While resources like Khan Academy have gained immense value during this time, it’s important to recognize that they cannot and should not replace comprehensive education. In this episode of Class Disrupted, we have a conversation with Sal Khan, discussing why Khan Academy has its limitations and why the classroom experience remains crucial. Looking towards the future, we can embrace new learning methods that break free from the constraints of traditional frameworks.
Please listen to the episode below, and a complete transcript is provided afterwards.
Diane: This week, I thought it would be nice for us to check in with each other. You have 5-year-old twins at home. How’s everything going?
Michael: Oh, the joys of having 5-year-old twins at home. Diane, we have quickly established a routine for our family, providing the girls with a sense of certainty for each day while also giving them the freedom to choose their activities. And of course, most importantly according to them, when they can have snacks. It feels like we’re constantly ordering online right now because they must be going through growth spurts. Nevertheless, we created this routine to help them understand what aspects they can control and give them a sense of security during these uncertain times. We also want to continue fostering their agency and executive functioning skills, which their physical school was doing an excellent job of before.
But I must admit, there are challenging moments. It took the school a while to adjust its own schedule, which in turn affected our schedule and rhythms. As we now face the approaching summer, it’s clear why my wife and I receive dozens of texts and messages each day from other parents. Everyone wants to know what will happen next year. Are online schools an option? The current situation is simply not sustainable for any of us. It’s like my haircut right now, you know.
Diane: You look fabulous.
Michael: Thank you. But we’re all doing our best, right? I’m curious, how are you doing? You’re on the opposite end of the spectrum with an 18-year-old at home, which I imagine presents its own set of challenges.
Diane: It’s fascinating because despite the age difference between 18 and 5, there are plenty of similarities and shared concerns. Right now, we have accepted that this school year is practically over. Like you said, everyone’s attention has shifted towards next year. Thankfully, with an 18-year-old, I’m not overly worried about summer because he can take care of himself. So the panic isn’t about what I should do with him. However, my goodness, we are all consumed by thoughts of next year. This is a massive question for 18-year-olds, Michael.
Should they go to college? Should they take a gap year? How can they even be certain if colleges will reopen and if they do, will they be online? There are significant financial implications here. So similar questions arise, just for a different stage of life.
Diane: I understand completely. The truth is undeniable. People continuously reach out to us for advice, but it takes a series of questions to truly understand the nuances of their situations. It’s impossible to offer any advice that fits every individual because each person’s circumstances are deeply personal. The reality is that there are countless things we don’t know and may never know, which leads to individuals feeling compelled to make decisions with limited information. It’s an unpleasant predicament that cannot be avoided.
Michael: It’s truly frightening. My family is currently engaged in intense discussions about this.
Diane: Both of us are optimists, despite everything. What I can say is that there is still a wealth of knowledge available to us, Michael.
Michael: Absolutely. Our last episode gave me a lot of encouragement, especially when Larry Berger spoke about the potential of digital learning when done correctly.
Diane: That’s absolutely true. We have been debunking the myth that digital technology eliminates the need for teachers, which simply doesn’t make sense. I believe everyone is beginning to understand and experience that fact on a national and global scale. Just because we have access to digital tools doesn’t mean we can do without teachers.
Michael: I’m tired of that misconception, as I’m sure some of our listeners are as well. The best digital learning tools actually empower teachers to excel in their roles, granting them the opportunity to focus on each student and identify their unique obstacles while unlocking their potential.
Diane: Precisely. These discussions have brought about an interesting question. After exploring fantastic digital tools that provide these benefits and emphasizing the importance of teachers, some people argue that those two components are all we need. Naturally, their attention turns to Sal Khan because he is renowned as the world’s most famous teacher. His incredible digital tools have reached 100 million people worldwide.
I can’t even fathom the number 100 million. But Khan Academy is currently being utilized by that many. So, people question, why can’t Sal Khan teach everyone?
Michael: If only it were that simple. Many parents may think that a digital tool and a teacher are sufficient for an excellent education, but that alone won’t quench the thirst for knowledge. The problem is that it’s an incomplete education. Kids still need to acquire knowledge, even though we have Google for everything. The foundation of knowledge is essential. Additionally, there are crucial skills and habits that transcend any subject area, which must be mastered. Children need to engage in practical, hands-on activities that motivate and activate them throughout the learning process. This calls for a completely different approach to education.
Diane: I wholeheartedly agree, and here’s the fascinating part: Sal Khan agrees with you as well. Luckily, I live in the same neighborhood as him, so I thought, instead of everyone asking the question about Sal, why don’t we go directly to the source and ask Sal himself?
Don’t worry, we adhered to all social distancing guidelines, but I had the opportunity to catch up with Sal and pose this question and more to him.
**
Diane: People may not be aware that you are a father, which makes me particularly interested to know, how has the experience of sheltering in place been as a father to three children?
Sal: I have an 11-year-old, an 8-year-old, and a 5-year-old. I believe that in the context of social distancing, everything is relative. And if we consider it from that perspective, we have been fortunate enough to manage it quite well.
Diane: I am aware that Khan Academy is currently engaged in numerous important initiatives worldwide. Can you highlight the key aspects that stand out to you? I imagine you must feel an immense sense of urgency.
Sal: Absolutely. I believe a sense of urgency is the perfect way to describe it. There is a pressing need to ensure that people continue learning during this crisis. Additionally, we find ourselves in a moment where there is a greater openness to new ideas and approaches than there was just three months ago. It feels like there is a window of opportunity that, if utilized effectively to demonstrate the effectiveness of our methods and provide substantial help, can lead to long-lasting positive change.
Many individuals online have witnessed a significant surge in their traffic. Our registrations have reached about 300 percent of what is considered normal, or five to 10 times the usual amount. Parent registrations have increased by 20 times. Therefore, our primary objective is to remain operational and accessible.
As soon as we learned about the widespread closure of schools worldwide, we immediately kicked into high gear. It has been an intense and focused effort, resembling a war room atmosphere, although we are starting to feel the exhaustion.
I remember that initial weekend when the rest of the world was simply telling parents, teachers, and students, "Here are 500 resources on the internet, enjoy." That can be overwhelming and stressful. So we decided to take action. We created schedules tailored to students of different ages, providing a framework that parents could easily understand. We started conducting webinars for teachers, parents, and students, equipping them with the necessary knowledge to navigate Khan Academy or adapt to this new form of remote schooling during quarantine.
We have been preparing to ensure that people continue learning not only until the end of the school year but also throughout the summer and into the new school year. Both you and I firmly believe that students learn at different speeds and have varying gaps in their knowledge.
This has always been the case. Even as a sixth-grade teacher, you have always had students with different levels of preparedness and knowledge gaps. Online tools have proven to be valuable in addressing these differences over the years. However, this year presents even greater challenges. The variance in student knowledge will be more pronounced than ever before.
Therefore, we are expediting the development of these courses that we refer to as "getting ready for." For example, there will be courses like "getting ready for sixth grade" or "getting ready for fifth grade." These courses cover the essential concepts starting from basic arithmetic and progress towards grade-level material, enabling students to catch up as quickly as possible with certain acceleration mechanisms. Obviously, an average sixth-grader would already be familiar with much of the material covered. Our proposed model for the upcoming school year, ideally beginning in the summer or at least during the first week of school, is as follows: Regardless of the grade level, students should initially complete the "getting ready for" course for their respective grade. If they already know the material, they can finish it within a couple of hours. If there are gaps in their knowledge, they will need to address those gaps before moving on to grade-level material. Students who have not completed the "getting ready for" material can work on it concurrently with the grade-level materials.
Diane: One of the most important questions that parents ask is, "What specific knowledge does my child need?"
However, another significant question that parents ask, quite frankly, is, "Why can’t Sal Khan teach everyone everything they need to know?" After all, you are the most renowned teacher in the world. Why can’t everyone simply rely on Khan Academy to learn everything they need?
Even for individuals like Sultana, I believe she would have preferred, and I think everyone would have preferred, if she had a community of learners to be in, and if she had adult figures who could guide and support her, who could offer guidance and assistance with various aspects of life.
School is not just about acquiring knowledge in mathematical equations. It is also about learning how to navigate social interactions, how to resolve conflicts, and receiving guidance from various mentors. Therefore, there is a significant social aspect to schooling. Sultana is an exception in this regard. I believe that many families and children require a combination of both academic and social support.
While it is beneficial to have tools that provide feedback and personalized learning experiences, and offer assistance when one is stuck on a particular topic through hints or video lessons, there is nothing quite like having either an older peer or a teacher, ideally both. It does not necessarily have to be an older peer; it could be another student who can help overcome obstacles and motivate them to be part of a culture of learning.
In my child’s school, his friends actively engage in reading. There is a strong emphasis on cultivating a reading culture among the teachers. This doesn’t occur randomly. Therefore, I believe that the ideal approach combines the best of both worlds.
When advising parents, I recommend having a balance. Even if their child can dedicate just 30 or 40 minutes each day to math, reading, and writing, they will be able to navigate through the crisis successfully. However, it is not desirable for their entire education to rely solely on these subjects. It is important for them to have opportunities for socialization, mentorship, and establish close connections with teachers and classmates.
Diane: Some people may not be aware that you actually founded a school, the Khan Lab [School]. I have had the privilege of visiting it, and everything you are saying truly comes to life in that school.
Sal: Yes, Diane, in many ways, you were my inspiration. I was amazed by the incredible things you have accomplished. We have always collaborated with exceptional schools like Summit and the Summit network being one of those.
In 2012, I wrote The One World Schoolhouse. The book explores the evolution of the education system, my personal journey with Khan Academy, and what the world needs from schooling and how it can be reimagined with the tools at our disposal. When I wrote the book, I was simply theorizing in a room, contemplating ideas like eliminating summer vacation. I still believe in that idea. Some of the changes needed are quite basic. Why do we still have summer vacation? Its purpose was for children and teachers to assist on farms, but that is no longer the case. Moreover, it perpetuates inequality, as affluent families can afford to send their children to enriching summer camps, while lower-income children cannot.
I did not grow up wealthy. I used to spend hours watching TV during the summers. This is a source of inequality, as we know that children not only fail to learn during this time, but they also forget what they previously learned. The traditional school day ending at two or three in the afternoon is another source of inequality. It was designed for a Leave It to Beaver world, not taking into account children whose parents may not have gone to college, children who are learning English as a second language, or those who lack resources or whose parents work late in the evening. These children do not receive the same level of homework support or access to tutors as upper-middle-class and affluent families do.
These are very basic issues. Another aspect I strongly believe in is peer-to-peer mixed-age learning, which has been the norm for human beings for hundreds of thousands of years. Only in the past 200 years have we divided them into strict age groups, with a margin of six months.
Then there is the concept of mastery learning, which I know you strongly believe in as well. In the traditional system, if you receive a C on a test, it becomes a permanent mark on your record. You are labeled and branded with that C, signifying that you lacked understanding in a fundamental concept. Even though you only knew 80 percent of the material, the class moves on to more advanced concepts, assuming that you somehow grasp the previous one. Our perspective is different – if you receive a C, keep working on it. Maybe the class moves forward, maybe you make progress independently. It is important to continue moving on and exploring new material, but there should always be opportunities and motivations for you to revisit and fill in the gaps, preventing them from becoming obstacles.
We have envisioned a future where transcripts look different. They should not focus on the time spent in a seat or the duration it took to learn something. Instead, they should be based on competency. Did you understand it or not? And if you did not, you have the chance to go back and improve.
Transcripts should include a portfolio of your creative work, as well as assessments from peers and faculty in the form of narratives. This was the underlying theory behind the establishment of Khan Lab School. I must admit, it has been quite an adventure. I know you understand this. It is one thing to write about it, but an entirely different challenge to actually build it. And that is how we learn. I know you also believe in project-based learning. This endeavor is a project, and we will learn from it. There is so much that I have learned along the way. Overall, I believe that almost all of these dimensions have yielded positive outcomes.
One of the most challenging aspects is helping people realize that some of the assumed constraints have never actually existed. Even when you explicitly remove them, it can still be difficult. It is similar to how baby elephants are restrained – initially with metal shackles and later with rope ones that they could easily break. Even when those restraints are removed, they are hesitant to leave the enclosure. I see a lot of that mentality in education.
Diane: That resonates with me. I often hear people say, "We can’t do that." And I always respond with, "Why not? Is there a policy, a law, a rule?" And when you dig deeper, there usually isn’t. It’s just this lingering belief.
Sal: I completely agree. There are countless examples. Can we shift the timing of things so that not everyone has to teach every subject all the time? This would allow for a deeper exploration of certain subjects at certain times. These types of ideas are simply common sense, yet they can be incredibly eye-opening.
Diane: Absolutely. One surprising thing for people when they visit Khan Lab Academy is seeing the students setting goals for themselves. They work collaboratively and pursue big questions in dialogue. What is not often seen is an abundance of technology, which may come as a shock to many. It is merely a tool. The students are not just glued to screens like many would assume when they think of you or me. That is not what we envision a complete education to look like.
Sal: The same holds true for the Summit schools. We strive for as much interactivity and personalization as possible. That is the pedagogical principle. Whether it is chalk, better carpeting, technology, or Khan Academy, we embrace any and all means to achieve our goals.
It’s true, you’re absolutely correct. I must give credit to the teachers because when my children had to transition to learning from home, specifically my 11-year-old and 8-year-old who have been in the program for several years, they are more productive than I am currently. They want me to step aside and not bother them because they have a Zoom call and don’t want me to use up the internet.
Diane: I completely relate to that. My son is going through the same thing right now. He’s juggling preparing for college and finishing high school, and he has his own schedule. This highlights the importance of executive functioning skills and the skills that lead to success in the real world. What your students at your school are doing is practicing these skills every day. This allows them to have them readily available when needed. It’s different from what parents across the country are experiencing, where they feel overwhelmed trying to manage their child’s emails and website. They lack the necessary skill set and feel lost.
Sal: Yes, and that skill is possibly the most important. It’s a crucial skill for college and life in general.
Diane: One aspect of you that I admire is your belief in what is best for all children. You’re not just fighting for some children, but for every child. In a time where inequality is at the forefront of our minds, I think that’s incredibly important.
Sal: I always tell the Lab School team that it’s not only about serving the 200 kids who attend the school. We need to share our model and figure out how to scale it. Currently, we are essentially a virtual school, and while we plan to return to physical schooling when appropriate, we will likely remain a hybrid school for the next few months. We are contemplating how to expand and make it a virtual school. As you know, real estate has been a limiting factor in Silicon Valley.
Diane: We are also considering the same possibilities. The reality is that there will be kids next year who cannot come back to our physical buildings due to health reasons and other factors. So, how can we serve all of them and more?
Now, I want to conclude by discussing the urgent opportunities that exist at this moment. Are there one or two significant opportunities that you believe we should collectively strive for?
Sal: I believe there are several. I have spoken extensively about Khan Academy’s efforts to bring students up to grade level and personalize their learning. This includes providing dashboards for teachers and districts, which is one set of opportunities.
Another significant opportunity lies in competency-based learning. This is a project that I personally am working on, separate from Khan Academy. We are exploring ways for students to obtain college credit, such as completing Algebra II on Khan Academy and earning college algebra credit. College algebra is known to be challenging, and many students end up with debt and no degree because of it. If students could earn that credit in ninth, tenth, or eleventh grade, it would be a huge advantage. And why stop at math? We can implement competency-based mechanisms to earn credit in other subjects as well, allowing students to get a head start.
Furthermore, every teacher around the country, and even the world, is currently trying to figure out how to incorporate videoconferencing into teaching and learning. Again, this is a personal project of mine, not related to Khan Academy. I am collaborating with the Long Beach School District on a platform called schoolhouse.world. It is based on the Khan Academy taxonomy and initially focuses on math. Every student in the district would have access to this platform. If a student is struggling with a specific topic, like factoring quadratics in Algebra II, and Khan Academy alone is not sufficient, they would have additional resources available to help them overcome difficulties.
One of the dreams is to have the convenience of receiving immediate help at the click of a button. There are two possible models for this. It could involve a stranger, but there are concerns regarding safety that need to be addressed. Alternatively, it could be a consistent group of individuals with whom you form a relationship.
I strongly believe that there is a significant demand for such a service, and I do not see it as solely virtual. Instead, it can complement physical experiences seamlessly, as we have discussed. This integration is crucial.
Diane: These are all inspiring ideas. I have hope that you and your team can figure this out and accomplish much more. I am grateful that you took the time to speak with us this morning. Thank you for being here and for everything you are doing for the world.
Sal: Thank you, Diane. I feel the same way about you. Thanks for having me, and you are one of my heroes. I look forward to seeing how our journeys unfold in the coming months.
Diane: I’ll see you around the neighborhood.
Sal: See you around the neighborhood.
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Michael: Diane, that was an incredible conversation. I envy that you get to be neighbors with him and have these discussions more frequently when social distancing is no longer necessary. His optimism is truly contagious, and his ideas not only make sense but also inspire us to rethink education. I can’t help but wonder, why aren’t schools implementing these ideas? Why aren’t they taking advantage of the upcoming summer months to pilot these innovations and turn them into reality?
Diane: That’s a valid question, Michael, and one that perplexes both of us. I believe one reason schools are hesitant to adopt these changes is the uncertainty surrounding the next academic year. People feel paralyzed by the unknown. However, there are also many things we do know about the upcoming year, and we can use that knowledge as a starting point. For instance, we know that schools will face financial constraints. That is an unavoidable reality.
Michael: Absolutely. Budgets are diminishing everywhere. States and districts will struggle to secure funding for the proposed changes and provide teachers with the necessary planning time. Furthermore, we cannot guarantee safety from COVID-19. The virus will continue to be a threat in September, and a vaccine might not be available by then. This will hamper educators’ ability to gather and collaborate on these plans.
Diane: You’re right. It also raises concerns about what on-campus learning will look like and who will be able to attend. The reality is that next year, some students, families, and even teachers may not be able to physically be present in schools. Individuals will have to carefully consider the need to return to in-person learning against the associated risks. This means that next year will not be "normal" in any sense. That much is certain.
Michael: Indeed. I’m currently receiving countless inquiries about whether parents should enroll their children in virtual schools if they will be learning remotely anyway. They question why not join a virtual school with extensive experience in facilitating full-time virtual education.
However, I cannot provide a recommendation either way because there are numerous personal questions that need to be addressed by the family in regards to their circumstances, community environment, and values in order to make a decision.
Diane: I’m curious about your second point.
Michael: Yes, my second point, which I believe is a more constructive discussion, is how can we not only explore virtual school options, but also determine which ones align with these new realities. I want to highlight two interesting aspects of full-time virtual schools. Firstly, many of them have been developed based on the same traditional assumptions as physical schools. Despite being free from certain constraints, they still face similar limitations that we have discussed. We will delve deeper into this in future episodes. Secondly, a lot of these virtual schools focus on the amount of time spent in front of a computer rather than the actual quality and method of learning. Therefore, it is crucial to be intentional in selecting a good virtual school.
However, my second point is, why don’t we have a more productive conversation about how we can help our schools progress in the ways we have been discussing? How can we assist our schools in adapting to these challenging times and create pathways towards the future of education that we describe in this podcast? This is a major reason why both of us were excited to come together and have this conversation for our listeners.
Diane: It’s interesting. At the beginning of this episode, I was thinking as a parent, but now I want to switch and put on my school leader hat. As school leaders, we also have numerous questions and uncertainties. We are grappling with many unknowns regarding the requirements we will have to meet. The reason we don’t have clear answers for the upcoming fall is because we don’t have clear answers ourselves. I really appreciate the concept of building bridges that you just introduced. It aligns with our ongoing discussions as we plan for the next academic year. We know that it won’t resemble the previous year before COVID-19, and we hope it doesn’t. We want things to improve going forward. In this transitional period, we aim to do things that bridge the gap and lead us to a better future. We always emphasize the difference between building a bridge and building a pier. A pier will take you into the vast ocean, away from your desired future, while a bridge takes you where you want to go. This is our core thinking at the moment.
Michael: It’s a powerful metaphor. It reminds me of Sal’s story about the elephant and the shackles, and the challenge we face in pivoting. I have extensively studied disruptive innovation and how organizations struggle to embrace the unknown and break free from old molds. My advice to educators and parents listening is, how can you create spaces within your schools where you can start experimenting with new approaches?
For example, a few months ago, I wrote an article for Forbes about a parent in my community who faced difficulties due to an immune condition. She didn’t want to send her child to school before it was officially canceled in March. The school’s response was that it would be considered an unexcused absence and it would count against her. This frustrated me because we should recognize that learning can happen anywhere, including digitally on the internet. We have the ability to connect with mentors and people in real-time to guide us and undertake incredible projects in our communities.
We have the opportunity to create bridges that cater to the diverse needs and preferences of families for the upcoming school year. For those who want a full-time virtual experience, we will provide a more comprehensive option. For those who prefer in-person learning, we have a solution that takes into account the reduced number of students. And for those who desire a hybrid experience, which is likely to be popular among many families, we will find creative ways to facilitate that as well.
In order to determine the best approach, we need to consider our goals for the next year. We must ask ourselves what we truly want from education. As parents, we have multiple reasons for sending our children to school. It’s not just about learning math or reading, but also about socialization, childcare, personal development, acquiring skills for success in life, and more. Therefore, we need to think differently about how we can achieve these outcomes.
Research has shown that parents have different priorities when choosing a school for their children. Some seek a way out of a difficult situation and view education as a temporary solution. Others look for a community that aligns with their values and beliefs. And some simply want their children to have specific academic experiences.
What I find significant is what you implemented at Summit. You offered four different pathways that allowed families and students to make choices based on their individual circumstances and desires. This approach needs to be at the core of every school’s mission — to serve diverse students and families with varying needs and circumstances. The differences will only become more evident next year, although they have always been there, perhaps just unnoticed.
Ultimately, our vision for the future of education is one where schools personalize the learning experience for families, providing different pathways and flexible options. We need to ensure that education meets the unique needs of every learner. The secure aspect of the next year lies in our ability to move in this direction and be responsive to the current situation.
This conversation sets the foundation for the rest of our podcast series. We want to encourage schools to reflect on their goals and aspirations for education in their communities. What do they want students to know and be able to do? It’s about teaching skills, values, and habits of success. In the upcoming episodes, we will delve into these questions further. We have already discussed the digital pathway, but now we can explore other experiences that schooling should provide, regardless of the location. It’s about creating meaningful learning experiences for all learners.
Michael Horn is an accomplished writer who has authored several books about the future of learning, including Disrupting Class: How Disruptive Innovation Will Change the Way the World Learns. His expertise lies in assisting various organizations in revolutionizing education to empower individuals to pursue their passions and reach their full potential.
Diane Tavenner, on the other hand, holds the esteemed position of CEO at Summit Public Schools and is one of the co-founders of the Summit Learning Program. With a lifelong dedication to education and innovation, she has become a respected figure in the field. Additionally, Diane Tavenner is the author of Prepared: What Kids Need for a Fulfilled Life, another significant contribution to the realm of education.
